Lets Talk About PVP

[Tide1 4535]

I made a similar, quite well-received post, not too long ago. It didn't include a poll, I wanted people to interact with the post itself, but this one has been quite helpful for that.

Spoiler

 

 

I think, interestingly, between the two posts, you can identify what exactly people want. 

The majority wants to keep 1.8, and seemingly quite enjoys the "complexity" inherent to the PvP-plugin, or wants even more complexity added to it, which genuinely surprised me with my post.

What people actually want changed is the huge gear costs and overall rules surrounding wars and PvP in general. You can leave it to some PvP-heads to fine-tune the plugin in any eventual re-hash of the thing, which should still happen in my opinion, but any of the large sweeping changes have already been voiced as desired by the community.

 

Seems to me people enjoy a Nexus-style plugin with a wide variety of gear at their disposal, and I can't lie and say that I wouldn't want to see it embellished upon myself, though I have no faith in the tech team's ability to do so (no offense meant).

 

16 hours ago, Frostdrop1 said:

how their sheer architecture was built with dodging the /break of windows because they're so utterly mechanically 'win' oriented

 

Had to point this out because it made me laugh. The lack of windows comes from being a European, medieval-looking building, where windows are relegated to buildings of importance. I am sorry that this inhibits your ability to troll and break windows while ppl are logged off, though.

 

16 hours ago, Frostdrop1 said:

Nobody should be forced into a system that fosters this kind of in v out grouping because it feels distinctly gross. 

 

I am also not an enjoyer of systems like these, which have relegated people like me to never participating in ST-events before, because we have not been in the "In-group" of RP CA/MA-stackers, or folks toting 500 ST-items - this isn't a phenomenon unique to PvP or nation-building, but instead a common facet of MCRP. As it stands right now, a bunch of people are, by rule, forced to interact with the aforementioned group of those favored by the ST whenever they so please, and an imperial city seems to be the only sanctuary from such a thing that the common man can seem to enjoy.

 

This is a two-way street, and deserves a two-way solution. I can't fathom what there is to complain about on a server that has CRP-default.

[terms 255]

bring back pots.

[Blake0205 241]

No, (how about repair plugin)

[Ardory 2978]

How to rep farm:

 

1) think of something controversial (staff, pvp, lore, etc)

2) post it on the forums

3) Watch the updoots roll in.

[iSmooch 124]

I've enjoyed reading through these posts about PvP discussions, and as with any healthy community, there are very deep feelings on both sides. I am new to LoTC and can not feign to know the efforts of grinding in this system over the long haul. But it is easy to see that the grind requirements are themselves an inhibitor to people engaging mechanical PvP et al. PvPers will be less likely to gear up trainees to really train them thoroughly. new/non PvP-ers can be intimidated by the sheer cost and effort required only for them to be bad at it. The lack of training and experience, have those pulled into warclaims and large rallies, because body count matters more in lag fights, finding themselves in a whirlwind of confusion, adrenaline and odd-feelings, only to click in a general direction for 20-30 seconds and respawn. Sure you're joined by many others who met the same fate, but it would be difficult to call this whole loop 'fun'.

 

I was spoiled personally as someone who joined during the last few months of an ending map, with a populous who already knew of the end approaching. So everyone was throwing gear at everything, because it could be spared now. I know the grind life and quite honestly, have no issue with it personally. But I also know that this creates a barrier in an environment where the goal IS to RP and not grind. I see benefit in those being able to grind and improve their odds, but I do not think that reward should be gear vs no gear. We have blacksmiths... why not have a blacksmith be able to improve armor and weapons? This adds lore color to the blacksmith as a profession, as well as adding a new avenue for 'advantage'. You could make starting armor values worse, but easier to obtain. Add variety in armor sets that themselves could be used to cater builds or classes. Leather armor set that grants bonus damage to archery, but increased incoming sword damage. Heavy netherrite armor that further reduces incoming damage, but prevents the use of shields/bucklers. These aren't novel examples, nor would I claim good ones, but providing armor/build variety could go a long way into removing the 'its either calvary build, or infantry build', and create a more strategic unit uniqueness without a complete Minecraft PvP system rewrite. This also adds more lore-bound reasons to the strengths and weaknesses of the different class builds. Shoot, maybe even race specific smithing/armoring? This still adds a time and grind component to top tier armor, but would add variety and gamify the process instead of balancing a 'few-step' process by just making certain legs of the process 'longer'. Not to mention, armor-based conditions would be easy from a technical/implementation perspective.

There were many mentions/calls to rewrite from the ground up. In a place where the mechanical systems do not necessarily align with the lore expectations, then that is probably needed, but the difficulty to implement a comprehensive system may not just provide more lore appropriate interactions, but it will also create a steady need for balance testing, and adjustments, not to mention the absolute unit of an undertaking such a rework would require (rework doing a lot of lifting for something that would essentially be built from scratch). Implementing something like magic and other lore benefits would be a long term effort and would require relentless balancing to get even close to a system that everyone enjoys, but it could be worthwhile one in the end.

 

I have not read every post here, but it seems a large divide is caused by martial experts in lore not necessarily echoing that in PvP skill, or the system not engaging lore/rp stats, skills and benefits. This is a fair complaint, but i would say there are as many 'Top PvPers' that dominate that scene as there are CRPers who will powergame you into submission over the course of hours while the system is locked to honor. I'm a big fan of rolls, but i'm also of the rare ilk that losing and negative consequences are some of my favorite things in the RP space. The problem with dice, I imagine, is that many people will feel like luck cheated them out of a win they deserved, or could have had. I have no solution to this or further comment, but CRP is far from flawless, and I'd say more deflating to 'almost win' or 'almost get away' for 3 hours only to get hit by some spinning blade that circumvents every block and dodge because honor, than just a few seconds of clicking then losing. 

 

My voice means little in this. But for me RP has some simple rules for things like this that help drive me to have fun. You can't and shouldn't always win. Everyone shouldn't be good at something, and everyone DEFINITELY can't be the best at something. I dont PvP to win. I PvP because my character would be on that battlefield. If I can't click, well then.. .my guy is a bad fighter. With this note, I would never play a character that's 'the greatest brawling knight seen in all of Descendant kind', even if that was a desire of mine, I'm just not the guy for that role. This isn't forcing, or limiting. No different than actors/actresses being passed on their dream roles because they are not good fits. Jason Statham would be an odd selection for leading a class of middle-school students to (nearly) win a Battle-of-the-Bands competition, as equally would Jack Black be off putting telling us he never checks the cargo. I could still attempt to play such a Knight, but I would do so knowing that, ultimately, I will have to fight, and then I'll be playing a dead version of that knight. This wouldn't upset me, as I would understand what I would be signing up for in that scenario. If I wanted to be that guy, then I'd find a way to practice and get at least 'better' so I can attempt it more whole heartedly, but I have not plans for that currently!

 

All this to really say, maybe part of the friction is that people want PvP/CRP to be winnable for everyone. That those that sweat on it are not the ones predestined to win. I think this one trait is what allows this whole experiment to function in a more realistic way. That varying skillsets exist, and MOST of those shouldn't be 'good at pvp'. Those that do practice should be rewarded. 1.8 combat is definitely more approachable to new/non-pvpers, but is not as diverse as 1.9 combat on strategy, lowering the skill cap considerably, and I think 1.9 lends itself more to the 'practice to get good' efforts. 1.9 is more heavily impacted by lag/ping. This is not an advocation for either but definitely solid reasons both mechanically and rply to use/not use.

 

i'm sorry for the book. Especially from someone with much less in the game than others. For those that read, thanks for your time. 

 

tldr - my opinion means nothing but I shared it anyways :)

Edited September 24, 2025 by iSmooch
your - you're, class - race, fill - feel, then - than

[Morigung-oog 5697]

Keep 1.8 - 1.9 is impractical and dumb

 

Bring back warzones.

[Frostdrop1 1843]

8 hours ago, Tide1 said:

medieval-looking building, where windows are relegated to buildings of importance. I am sorry that this inhibits your ability to troll and break windows while ppl are logged off, though.

Then the building style was somehow missed. Most buildings had windows, they just didnt have accessible windows. They just have ways of skirting around /break. This included, but we not limited to, the use of copper blocks, chains and even using the debug stick to make arches that fundamentally looked pretty but were inpassable by player model. This occurs in every city, but the sheer amount in the Empire build was shockingly egregious to the point where it was obnoxiously noticeable. And while it may be to your surprise, no - I am not  a player who regularly steals anything. In my full span on time in the server i've taken roughly four or five items with only one of which in the past full year which was a letter of interest. I take note because even I, as someone who doesn't really engage in the mechanic without a very particular roleplay drive to do so, thought it was blatantly unfair and strongly believe the rules and mechanics should be updated to prevent this kind of mass mechanic-avoidant spam. These kind of mechanical aspects also reserve their right to be protected as valid, just like PVP, not matter how much I or you personally dislike it. It is, inherently, part of the mechanical side of the server and no amount of attempting X style should be an acceptable when it doesn't achieve the aim and also is inherently hindering to certain groups.

 

Side note: with the addition of /persona scale this may fix the issue with the debut stick arches. /break just needs to be added to the rest. Or some kind of tool to break and then the style is fine and the mechanic remains okay.

 

""In-group" of RP CA/MA-stackers, or folks toting 500 ST-items - this isn't a phenomenon unique to PvP or nation-building, but instead a common facet of MCRP. "

 

I fundamentally agree. Albeit, I do find it somewhat disingenuous when I look at the top-dogs of the Empire to claim this group doesn't include a good selection of these people. In my experience, ST tend to have a lot of this stuff, as do a good chunk of the big PVPers. There is a fairly large overlap between 'top PVPer' and 'ST hoarder'.  Correlation does not equal causation though. And a good chunk of the truly best do engage well in both areas, which naturally leads them to reap benefits because they're good at it. Although, for a certain sub-section I, personally, would pin this on some particularly disagreeable 'winner' attitudes. The same thing that makes PVP in general so icky, just more brazenly and more directly person-to-person, not character-to-character. Personally, I do at least find it somewhat more tolerable when it is something I can project to the character I have rather than having to engage with something rather demeaning as myself.

[STBNL 250]

Though LOTC will always have TPS issues, I think it's better for the server to remain as 1.8 pvp as is. On the past with 1.9 fighting it was one of the other issues that caused the spiking and problems which caused the server to occasionally disconnect when opposing parties met. Making large scale battles barely playable as we all had lag spikes to deal with. We'll fight in blob fights and the only skill in that is fleepers listening to their shotcallers to eat and swing. Not to mention it would take hours to complete.

Edited September 24, 2025 by STBNL

[kuebiko 684]

On 9/23/2025 at 2:34 PM, NotEvilAtAll said:

The number one issue with lotc wars is morale. Whenever a side in a war loses a warclaim, their rally size drops afterwards due to people losing hope. Likewise, the winning side either gains rally size or doesn't have any change in rally size. This leads to a snowballing effect and makes comebacks rare outside of PvPers switching sides or major tactical mistakes by the winning side (like Westmark). multiple wars this map have been decided after just 1-2 warclaims by the losing side all mass-surrendering because they lose all of their morale and can no longer rally people.

 

This makes wars less fun because it turns them into steamrolls. Wars usually are determined by the results of the first warclaim and even an evenly matched conflict will eventually turn into a steamroll if one side has a chain of defeats leading to people losing hope and no longer rallying. It is less fun for the winning side because all of the excitement and tension goes away when their victory is essentially guaranteed. It is less fun for the losing side because they have to grind up tons of gear and rally for hours just to get rolled in a few minutes blob fight and lose everything.

 

maybe people would be more willing to stick with the losing side of a conflict if gear was easier to obtain. If gear was easier to obtain, grinding gear for a hopeless battle wouldn't be as tiresome and the losing side of conflicts might be more willing to fight on. Other than that, this is a cultural issue with LOTC with no easy fixes. People just don't like losing and it's hard to keep people engaged after taking a major loss in such a way that wars can be back-and-forth.

 

This is why other people are suggesting that wars should only have like 1-2 battles in them anyways. With how player morale impacts LOTC wars, it's hard to have more than 1-2 battles in a war without it turning into one side getting increasingly steamrolled. If we want our wars to be longer, we have to find a way for people to be more willing to fight on for longer.

something to piggy back off of

i think people would be more inclined to continue fighting for their nations if the stakes were lowered a bit. most wars on Aevos have been "surrender or else we're annihilating your entire nation, which we were going to do anyways" so when your side is losing there's nothing to try and hold on to. i think if people didn't go for total annihilation every time, people would fight for what they could keep. or something

[wolfdwg 2677]

Current crafting system is fine, costs need to be lowered, especially leather. Maces/Warhammers need an actual function, i.e. Slowness III for 1 second, Blindness for 1 second on a proc hit. Make it the chaser weapon.

 

As for war in itself I’d like to see a return of Warzones when prompted for empty tiles. How’d it work is War Server would turn into a pvp map over the current place, limit access to sign up sheets but have respawns enabled/rejoin allowed. Week long fight with perhaps certain parts of the day to have a KoH mechhanic where at the end of an allotted time, the Victor gains a point in warscore. End of the Week whoever has most has control of the region. Main issue is the field fights are empty and have no depth. I see warzones that can br an alternative to allow combat over a week period so not all stress is put into one day of the week that tech/admins/mods/players have to all give up for. Meanwhile the warzones could just have any mod free at the time during the week long fight to watch at the very end to determine the victor. 
 

Just my thoughts as an old head.

[Unwillingly 18097]

2 hours ago, Frostdrop1 said:

This occurs in every city, but the sheer amount in the Empire build was shockingly egregious to the point where it was obnoxiously noticeable. And while it may be to your surprise, no - I am not  a player who regularly steals anything. In my full span on time in the server i've taken roughly four or five items with only one of which in the past full year which was a letter of interest. I take note because even I, as someone who doesn't really engage in the mechanic without a very particular roleplay drive to do so, thought it was blatantly unfair and strongly believe the rules and mechanics should be updated to prevent this kind of mass mechanic-avoidant spam.

 "mass mechanic avoidant spam"

if u want people to stop having to counter ridiculous mechanics with ridiculous builds u should be promoting giving petty theft a region-based cooldown. whinging at ppl for finding ways to counter petty theft mechanics instead of channeling all of this anger towards the people who spam /smash on 40+ doors and windows at 3am is so so silly

[Werew0lf 24180]

3 hours ago, Frostdrop1 said:

I fundamentally agree. Albeit, I do find it somewhat disingenuous when I look at the top-dogs of the Empire to claim this group doesn't include a good selection of these people. In my experience, ST tend to have a lot of this stuff, as do a good chunk of the big PVPers. There is a fairly large overlap between 'top PVPer' and 'ST hoarder'.  Correlation does not equal causation though. And a good chunk of the truly best do engage well in both areas, which naturally leads them to reap benefits because they're good at it. Although, for a certain sub-section I, personally, would pin this on some particularly disagreeable 'winner' attitudes. The same thing that makes PVP in general so icky, just more brazenly and more directly person-to-person, not character-to-character. Personally, I do at least find it somewhat more tolerable when it is something I can project to the character I have rather than having to engage with something rather demeaning as myself.

 

I'm going to have to agree to disagree here -- the 'top dogs' of the Empire are made up of players who do not have the same shtick with the ST. Barring myself (an ST), most of them are players who: do not get opportunities with CAs, the opportunities to have MAs, and do not partake (because it is not readily presented to them) in events. 

It is a two-way street. So much as most of the MA/CA/ST item stackers wouldn't like to lose in CRP (very common, happens a lot more than PvP in a server where 'CRP' is the default for combat), resorting to powergaming, hoarding ST items, playing around with their 'material kits', the PvPer probably doesn't like to lose in PvP where, inherently, the server is sparse of it outside of big conflicts. Current server engagements default conflict to CRP -- it only ever goes to PvP if there are 8 players for guards to default to ONLY IF CRP has not already been initiated and started. 

I agree that this is a roleplay server, and so RP should be the prevalent medium for CRP, I just find it very moronic when your main complaint about PvP is that the top dogs of the Empire monopolise it to their advantage only. It is an equal shares opportunity. If we have people who are good at PvP and also RP (something the server mandates and war rules stop to avoid needless 30 hour AFK grinders who come on from PvP servers) there shouldn't be an issue.

You're basically pointing fingers and saying its inherently fine when the RPers are the ones in the 'very out groupings'. I am certain that most of you would not include or attempt to bring in players from my 'PVPER NATION' into your 'ST MONOPOLY'. 

 

3 hours ago, Frostdrop1 said:

Then the building style was somehow missed. Most buildings had windows, they just didnt have accessible windows. They just have ways of skirting around /break. This included, but we not limited to, the use of copper blocks, chains and even using the debug stick to make arches that fundamentally looked pretty but were inpassable by player model. This occurs in every city, but the sheer amount in the Empire build was shockingly egregious to the point where it was obnoxiously noticeable. And while it may be to your surprise, no - I am not  a player who regularly steals anything. In my full span on time in the server i've taken roughly four or five items with only one of which in the past full year which was a letter of interest. I take note because even I, as someone who doesn't really engage in the mechanic without a very particular roleplay drive to do so, thought it was blatantly unfair and strongly believe the rules and mechanics should be updated to prevent this kind of mass mechanic-avoidant spam. These kind of mechanical aspects also reserve their right to be protected as valid, just like PVP, not matter how much I or you personally dislike it. It is, inherently, part of the mechanical side of the server and no amount of attempting X style should be an acceptable when it doesn't achieve the aim and also is inherently hindering to certain groups.

 

Side note: with the addition of /persona scale this may fix the issue with the debut stick arches. /break just needs to be added to the rest. Or some kind of tool to break and then the style is fine and the mechanic remains okay.

 

This is stupid -- I won't give it over a few sentences, but the Empire build has more break-in holes than most (we've had to try and fix some of them). The Empire always leaves its gates open, the building wasn't ever made with the intention of making it impossible to break into a house. You can still break through doors, it was just because Chaotikal liked using walls in his build. I don't get where this is even coming from, its just a very boring take that doesn't have much to do with PvP. I think it makes the build look nicer, you might disagree. 

 

 

[PrimnyaQuorum 3999]

1 hour ago, Unwillingly said:

 "mass mechanic avoidant spam"

if u want people to stop having to counter ridiculous mechanics with ridiculous builds u should be promoting giving petty theft a region-based cooldown. whinging at ppl for finding ways to counter petty theft mechanics instead of channeling all of this anger towards the people who spam /smash on 40+ doors and windows at 3am is so so silly

 

I think in a ideal server we have both reasonable builds that are not strictly anti-mechanics and sensible rules and limitations on when you can /break so that everything is rp friendly and not a arms race of cheese. its been 2 years though at this point its an impossibility

[souleater007 858]

On 9/23/2025 at 11:39 AM, Aeus said:

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Feliz Mes de la Herencia Hispana and Shana Tova

 

 

Pvp on LOTC has always been somewhat controversial. Some people love it, some people avoid it, but most people fall somewhere in between. Personally, I’ve not enjoyed it on the server very much. I’m not a pvper myself, but PvPhas always been a way to progress the story on the server, and I believe we should be putting as much effort into a good and fair system as we do with any other part of the server.

 

With 10.0 getting finalized and transfer being right around the corner, I think now is the perfect time to make some much needed changes to the war system and PvP on the server.

 

The Current State of PvP:

━━━━━━━━━━━━━

 

Right now, pvp runs on Surge which was made (and never finished) by an alphabet banned player. The system was made quickly and without much thought – just to get something out at the start of 9.0. The plugin is subsequently not well maintained, and the updates we get are random patches in which javelins do 3 times more damage. 

 

Some of the bigger issues in my opinion are:

 

• Gear complexity: There are a lot of different weapons and armor in Surge, a lot of things that often don’t get used and just add to the difficulty in upkeep, and balance issues. Some gear dominates, others are for the most part useless.
• Stats imbalance: On top of the different swords, bows, armors etc., there is also difference in quality, things do different damage, or the effects change depending on the quality of the gear you’re wearing. It gives an edge to grinders who also tend to be the better pvpers, defeating the purpose of going back to 1.8 for the “accessibility” it provides to more players.
• Outdated system: LOTC went back to 1.8 in an attempt to make pvp more accessible to people, but really all it has done is make fights look different, not necessarily fairer.
• Abandoned plugin: Surge is a half-finished plugin that for the most part is being ignored at best to work on other things, which is understandable for the duration of map change. 

 

In conclusion, we need a simpler (finished) plugin with less bloat. The kits should be simplified and made easier to grind for. It should also be standardized across the board so that people who focus more on RP or don’t have the time outside of work to craft 100 netherite swords in hopes of getting an excellent or legendary sword.

 

Warclaims and Lag

━━━━━━━━━━━━━

 

When it comes down to warclaims, none of this really matters if the server is running at 5 TPS. Wars that decide the outcome of nations end up being a slideshow in which people are dying to lag or random damage than actual mechanics. 

 

The war system as a whole feels boring as well. Often times, its conducted in a single warclaim – most likely a siege that then leads to a tile transfer. I think with the tiles being far bigger, with multiple cities and vassals in one, the system needs a massive overhaul. Personally I’d like to see warclaims be done on main, and for tile conquest for there to be two warclaims (Field battle and siege for example). 

 

1.8 vs 1.9

━━━━━━━━━━━━━

 

One of the reasons made to make the switch to 1.8 was spam clicking will be easier, making pvp more accessible to roleplayers. But that’s not really what the issue with pvp was in 8.0. The best pvpers in 8.0 were the same last map. In the battle of Westmark, the Ferrymen were able to beat the coalition decisively even though another reason for the switch was to attempt to curb Ferryman influence on the server.

 

Every popular pvp server has made the switch over to 1.9. It’s easier to maintain, upkeep, and its more in line with what the rest of the game is moving towards. Non pvpers aren’t suddenly winning more fights than they were before. The difference now is that pvpers don’t need to be as careful, since the meta no longer requires people to kite the whole map to win the fight. 

 

I believe that pvp on LOTC isn’t going to get better by sticking with the Surge plugin or pretending 1.8 evens the playing field for everyone.  We can make fights fairer and create a newer system that isn’t unfinished or thought out. I’m curious to know what you think about pvp, both from the veteran pvpers of the server to those of you who have only touched a sword to kill a cow or two. 

 

What version, war system, and kit set do you actually want to see? What have you noticed has worked best for you or your community, and what is your opinion on the current system as a whole?

 

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@Tide1 @Malta @LobsterLarry @Werew0lf @Mickaelhz @Vikenz @pkdon @Mio @Masouri @Nectorist @Lenny @Unwillingly @Jaelon @Gamma @Irishmanmichael @ErosTea @Axelu @Greehn

 

Very cool.

Now ignore all that. Fix the server infrastructure first. Literally none of this matters until we can have a warclaim that doesn't mysteriously lag out. Revisit looking at this when that's done first.

[Fishy 2709]

1.9 is a horrible system regardless of what you do with it. The fundamental mechanics of the swing timer being punitive are so flawed that Mojang doesn't even use it on Bedrock, which is their preferred version. A curse upon the household of every Youtuber who said 1.9 "wasn't THAT bad," as it directly correlated with the seeming cancellation of the Combat Update Tests. 

1.8, while prone to abuse, is a simple system that is more widely enjoyed. I would rather live with autoclickers than deal with swing timers.