Reorganizing Arcane Magic

[ShameJax 1391]

I believe when raptor originally made the post I spoke to him about it and he felt the same way as you though as jax said there really aren't enough blood magic users (Atleast seen) to make much of an impact or effectively use it. You guys were for a short time making those events with sacrificing and that was cool though it doesn't seem you are doing it any longer. I wouldn't mind though if you guys invited more blood mages and started doing events like that again but really. There shouldn't be an issue with combining arcane magics with other people. Right now there are some synergy stuff mages can do if they work in pairs. Like making a cloud of mist and then an electric mage shooting a less powerful current of electricity into it to make it a lightning cloud. Though really as it is, to do these epic feats said in the OP would require most likely about 5+ power mages and that in itself is quite difficult to do. If a group of mages, or some people that simply join together to experiment this are actually able to coordinate enough people they should be rewarded for it and be able to make things far more powerful than if they were alone. That's all i'm saying right now though since I am very tired 0-0 just got my wisdom teeth taken out today. So I will make another reply about the OP in a bit.

I agree with book here.

 

And about this post, I am neutral about it. But my only issue is primordials, being a primordial conjurationist myself with my primary being cryomancy it would be nice if primordials could be created under sorcery.

[BrandNewKitten 2789]

It is probably just me but I see arcane evo fitting better into wizardry. It's evocation sure but that is about as similar as it gets to elemental evocation. It is much more attached to aura magics. Ie. transfiguration and requires much more knowledge than any other evocation.

 

 

I think this format is pretty okay but could use some tweaking. Maybe the LMs are giving this a talk.

 

Anyways that's my two cents.

[Birdwhisperer 1173]

It's a nice system that would work well if we were starting everything fresh, but it would undo too many people's current RP.

[Swgrclan 2633]

I believe when raptor originally made the post I spoke to him about it and he felt the same way as you though as jax said there really aren't enough blood magic users (Atleast seen) to make much of an impact or effectively use it. You guys were for a short time making those events with sacrificing and that was cool though it doesn't seem you are doing it any longer. I wouldn't mind though if you guys invited more blood mages and started doing events like that again but really. There shouldn't be an issue with combining arcane magics with other people. Right now there are some synergy stuff mages can do if they work in pairs. Like making a cloud of mist and then an electric mage shooting a less powerful current of electricity into it to make it a lightning cloud. Though really as it is, to do these epic feats said in the OP would require most likely about 5+ power mages and that in itself is quite difficult to do. If a group of mages, or some people that simply join together to experiment this are actually able to coordinate enough people they should be rewarded for it and be able to make things far more powerful than if they were alone. That's all i'm saying right now though since I am very tired 0-0 just got my wisdom teeth taken out today. So I will make another reply about the OP in a bit.

I had referred to greater, catastrophic storms of arcane power that could be summoned by means of Blood Mage and evocationist cooperation as per the ritual involved for the certain effect. Anything to that degree would just be making the rituals useless, since they may be done without Blood Mages, whose powers are based on enhancing magical ability. 

[Pandan 1448]

Ignoring the more controversial topics such as limitations to one type, tiers, group magic and all that jazz.. And just focusing on the renaming aspect, what is the need for that?

 

People as it is are already 'confused' by the variety of magic, I feel changing them around and throwing under a less descriptive title (Sorcery vs. Evocation, which explains more?) is only going to add to the confusion and upset people further. 

 

Don't take this wrongly, I love the new labeling and if we were going from scratch this would be brill.. But for an  already in-depth magic system, surely this will only go on to confuse?

 

Thanks!

[Booklight12 477]

Okay, this is fairly long so I am going to be putting it in spoilers to see.

 

After reading this a couple of times I will say I greatly like this idea and can see this be extremely fun and interactive if done right. Though this may be long I will begin with some of the negative points that the majority of people see in that it is somewhat restrictive. Currently, there are a plethora of people who know magics that are of different schools by these standards in that we have people that have learnt 3-4 magics some with one of each subtype I once saw someone who knew Electric evocation, telekinesis, Conjuration, aswell as Illusion. Though of course by these standards it would mean he knows magics of 4 different schools which currently isn’t allowed. Now, I am not saying we remove the “Schools” infact I quite like them and that they have names despite them most likely not going to be fully caught on in-game (Least in my chars case). I feel it is somewhat restrictive only allowing basically one school to be learnt as it basically sets the people using them into ‘classes’ of sorts inwhich they will be stuck to doing now what they choose to do with the class is up to them but it prevents them from really studying other magics to help them in their magical studies. The other thing is how exactly would this method be implemented in-game? Would it be done via large events perhaps for magic users only? The mages guild (Even though they are for the most part inactive it seems) or simply accepted and given the “Okay, this is how magic works now.” Mind you I would like to see this implemented but it should be done via events for mages, maybe not a wipe of all magic and restarting but perhaps a change of sorts. Like something from the void randomly spawning into the realm and interfering with magic. Or something akin to that (Who knows).

Next I will move on into what I like about this addition. It is cool because it is a change of pace and gives a different overlook on magic RP, and may be implemented with some cool events. As well, I quite enjoy having school based super spells that can be done in groups as it makes working with other mages a more rewarding feat as you can do much more efficient spells and things with them like as you said teleporting, summoning blizzards, and summoning giant creatures with other mages. The other thing that is cool is the types of mini changes/spells of a kind within the schools abilities in that a thaumaturge is able to bind spectres to them to do their bidding most likely with OOC consent, and able to give a sliver of their mana pool to create a semi perminent conjuration though perhaps restrict it to only 1-2 per person. Though for something like that perhaps require the need of interaction in getting an alterationist to make it with you but be able to make it more ambiguous instead of making an enchantment you create this conjured being that is connected to the mana-pool of the creator. The last thing I like about it besides some other smaller things is the idea of classes being brought into this and having classes that are focused more on the combative side of magic (Though not necessarily forced into it if learnt) and then those on the more studious side, in Wizardry and Thaumaturgy. It can give greater meaning to the magics you pick instead of just learning the magics that you like instead have an actual response to it and semi perminant feeling of learning the magic. Also, it gives more incentive to interact with other mages to make massive spells.

Now, moving on to some ideas that I had that I feel should be explained/changed I will go in a numbered pattern to make it a bit more organized since this is a long post.

 

1. Perhaps since the void is changing we can see a slight change to how magic works so for example if we summon a large enough sum of mana with group based spells. The spells we make can be perminent in a way. That if we conjure a blizzard the blizzard may rage in the region we summon it in, for a set number of time depending on how much mana put forth and number of people and doesn’t require them to be actively be summoning this. Same thing can be said with other magics like in the binding of conjurations and spectres. Though it may diminish the strength of enchanting magic slightly (I don’t feel it would but others might) possibly have a slight change in alteration requiring them to put in effort to summon these spells and act like a catalyst of sorts. If you wish I wrote up arcane rituals as an idea with a few people a bit back and can give the general way how it worked. But in essence the alterationists works as a catalyst and bearer of the groups mana like a battery and with their help is able to output it to make the semi perminent creations, but not require them physical contact allowing them to do it at a distance.

2. To play off of that, perhaps in order to make these group based spells the group creating it could get either a GM or LM Permission, or to oversee the RP if they wish to make a large scale spell. Though not require super detailed lore instead simply say okay this is what we are doing we have so and so number of people helping out with it. Do you think it is possible, and or will you oversee it and give the reaction that will happen.

3. Instead of only being able to master 1 school and to be a great mage only really be able to use one school, instead break it off so it is possible to fully master 2 magics within 2 different schools. So I will take my character for example in that he only knows 2 magics that being Air mysticism and Transfiguration, he is fairly adept in both currently as he has been using both for over a year almost two years on air evocation and doesn’t particularly plan to learn any other magics. Though if put in enough effort why restrict people to only master 1 when they can master others, but as you use different schools simply make it harder on them. So I can only master 2 magic types/schools. But perhaps play in that mastering a magic doesn’t grant them more ability in using. So standard person “T” 4 in conjuration and a person “T” 5 in conjuration who  have been learning for the same amount of time can do the same things summon different things with the same amount of ease but grant the different perks of what you said. So the T5 conjurationist can bind their creations or bind Spectres but is restricted to only mastering 2 schools (This is a rough idea just think more mastery should be allowed) but the T4 one cannot bind these things but is able to learn much more magics just can’t use their “Special” abilities. This can also play into group based spells possibly allowing only people who fully master their magic to partake in them. As this would cut out those who truly want to dedicate themselves but at the same time make it so their isn’t such a large gap between them.

4. Possibly grant these small abilities to each group like how Thaumaturgists are able to bind spirits and their creations. Possibly allow the same thing to be done with the other schools. Not completely sure of what can be given but just an idea.

 

Anyways it was quite long but these are just a short few ideas I had that may be added to this and of course don’t need to be though my main concern is the restrictiveness of it in that you can’t master more than on schools. Some restrictions are good but not one that force you into a niche/class. But that doesn’t mean I don’t like this idea Mith :P it’s very interesting and I hope the LM’s/Admins look it over thoroughly. It is a great change and may be “Controversial” if we can even say that about something on our RP server. But it seems like it has a lot of positive support and you have mine!

Ps: I would remove the idea of Tiers though to it and make it more of a simpler thing such as levels like apprentice-novice-mage-master or something like that, or simply leave it to how it is now and only have “Mastery” to signify essentially T5

[monkeypoacher 6993]

I like it. I think rewriting the schools of magic with more clear drawbacks and red lines will help fight powergaming a little bit.

[DISCOLIQUID 1963]

It seems more like renaming Archtypes, and if I understand correctly, restricts people to a single archtype... Which if that is the case, I'm heavily against the idea. Not to mention, a lot of the "additions" are already largely possible.

Edit: After looking over again, it certainly is pinning people into one archtype... It kills massive amounts of creativity, and actually damages a lot of lore already in place. -1

 

The ideas Kalameet has listed here speak in droves the opinion I hold. Cramming those who link to the void into a single school that they must carefully select is highly annoying. It lends itself into the idea of the 'one trick mage' who simply does a few things better than anyone else. This robs role-play of its ingenuity, as I see new ways to role-play magic brought about every day. I disagree wholeheartedly with the ideas of the original post and do not wish to see my creativity boxed in by OOC restriction. 

 

-1

[Mithradites 1161]

My word! Looks at the questions! The love! The hate! The comments! Some full of anger, some full of glee!

Some show confusion justifiably!
Interest, questions, most clever and curious,
Does not leave this writer feeling at-all dubious!
So now I shall give your comments my two-pence!
(Except for yours Booklight, they were far too dense. ;-;)
(But do not believe your words have no sway,)
(I'll simply answer upon another day!)
 

Locking people to a certain archetype of magic simply sounds like a lock on creativity, so I'll have to give this a non-personal -1, sorry.

 

I've noticed a lot of questions like this (just using yours as an example, Leo. But your refusal to unquestioningly agree with me is taken utterly, utterly personal, you fiend.) which I am not sure I agree with. There is nothing stopping you from learning multiple schools of magic, what you -are- being stopped from doing is being a 'master' of each and every school. I knew this could impact people's current RP (I myself am multi-magic'd on my main character) and please, allow me to give my reasoning for this.

 

I was originally interested in writing up this idea after I read a comment by the enigmatic Lagomorphia on this thread  (https://www.lordofthecraft.net/topic/123075-bring-back-magic-apps-a-new-system/page-2) I won't put the little quotation box around it so it isn't confused with the rest of the quotes on this rather too-large post.

"As for the Tiering, like any leveling system, it exists on a clock until such a time as everyone starts hitting T5."
(Sorry if I am quoting you out of context or you aren't interested indirectly helping me, Lago)

That is a very good point. All magic is essentially on a clock until ultimate power is reached. Then what? Everyone's brilliant, and then no-one is. Variation and dynamism is lost, and interest wanes. It's an Incredibles Syndrome argument (The character of 'Syndrome,' not an 'incredible syndrome')! The way I figured to stop the inevitable peaking of magic is to make the average/mediocre magic an attractive choice. Tier 3 good! It's an advanced magic-user! Tier 2 is the average, and it ought to be fine too! As a tier 3 you can learn an accompanying tier 2 school or two tier 1 schools. As a tier 2 school you can learn a second tier 2 school, and an extra tier 1 school, or three tier 1 schools! Tiers 4 and 5 are for people who wish to be specialised in their school, and be 'the very, very best,' because I wanted it to still be an option for those willing to dedicate themselves to that degree. And that's fine too! But they needed disadvantages to balance it out and make the average still attractive. I feel it makes a lot of sense, and I feel it justifies losing abilities characters have spread out over other schools. In such a case, consider what you might gain from following a single school as well. Maybe it'll dull the pain somewhat?

As for the creativity argument, as in, this idea limiting you ability to perform creative magics in (alone or in conjunction with one-another), I completely disagree again. Firstly, to begin with a Sesame Street level argument, the only person limiting creativity is yourself (sorry). You'll still be able to do plenty of things yourself at mid-tier. As I didn't really put a definitive list of which abilities would accessible in which tier (purposely, I might add) there seems to be a fear that I'm going to limit you to worm-conjuration or tiny plume-of-flame-evocation. I am not trying to take away your toys. I personally want most things accessible at mid-tier, though you might not be able to perform to the same degree as you do now...? Does that sound like a condom-ad to you guys as well?
Even if you're incapable of being your interpretation of creative, how often are you actually doing these creative things? Once a month? Or maybe I'm wrong. I dunno. Write some examples down here, and I'll try to calm your fears! :DD

 

Otherwise good, but thaumaturgy is alteration.

 

By that I assume you mean that the extra things I propose for that school can all be performed with alteration. I agree, they probably can. Doesn't anyone else think it's odd that to do most things in a subtype of magic, it requires you to have skill in another? Just me?

 

I've been looking over this for a few moments now and read through it. And I'll do so again in a few days to understand everything properly.
But the graph at the bottom, the small picture.

You speak of a restriction upon mages that they can solely have one Tier 5 magic. I find that stupid, to be fully honest. I understand all the talking about it and what not. But a simple fact is that nearly no 'melee'- fighter will respect your magics properly. Restricting one self is just deadly.

And aside from that fact.. not all races have the same life length, thus it'd be completely illogical if a human would be able to get a Tier 5. If an Elf can only do so in the full span of his life. Not everyone has the same length of life. Thus restricting them to a single Tier 5 magic is simply illogical.

But I've always thought this way, since three years ago until today. :)




PS: I like the rest though ! Very well written out. :)

 

I gave my reasoning for parts of this question previously.

 

If you are a tier 5 mage and you are being attacked in close-quarters--Not having them charge at you from 20 metres away, but right at your throat--then you are likely going to lose unless you have back-up. This is how it's always been been, and should still be so now.

 

As for elves being restricted being illogical, yes, I can completely understand the reasoning behind it. It does make sense, but in the spirit of fairness, I don't believe I should limit magical development based on race. Furthermore, I give a reason why elves are limited to the same constraints as humans in the fluff paragraph before the graph. Furtherly furthermore, a school contains more than one of the current subtypes, not like how it is currently.

And also, thank you! :DD
 

It fields a clear structure, but it's very restrictive.

 

Also, I only roughly flew over this, but Tier 5 in Sorcery means basically mastering all the evocations?

 

As for combination spells (electrified water, etc.) I believe if it does not include two mages at once, that is a no-go. That is what I have been told at least.

 

I answered the first statement before.

To the first question, yes, more or less. Because they fit with my set out sorcery theme, and because most of them are essentially the same magic.

As for the second statement, I am unsure. I don't recall that ever being a thing, but if it is a thing, I very much doubt I'd leave it like that in my version.

 

I definitely like Arcane magic getting a rework, but it does feel a bit restrictive and arbitrary in it's restrictiveness. For instance, you've split telekinetics and mind magic up. Given this system, no one could RP a prototypical psychic due to the relevant magics being in two different subtypes.

I'd like to suggest something in place of the single subtype rule:

First, throw out the five tier system, as useful as it was in MAT, it's kinda more than what's needed now. A 3 tier system (Student/Proficient/Master) is all we need.

Second, Allow people to learn all four subtypes under these conditions:
Only one subtype can be mastered. This is your specialty, your focus.
If all four are known, one can't advance beyond the student level. It is forever one they can only dabble in.
All remaining subtypes can't advance beyond proficient. Proficient is the level of your average mage, after all.

Third I'd suggest requiring a teacher for all four schools, but given Arcane has been unlocked, I don't see that happening :(

 

I have never grouped the mind-magic and telekinesis subtypes myself, though I've never really considered a role for the protypical psychic dude. Though it's still possible to be so, just not at a masterful level.

The reason I kept the five-tier idea is because it gives a little more wiggle-room in regards to setting out levels of skill. Changing it to a three-tier system likely won't have any effect, other than making the system less detailed. :P

And why would we let everyone learn every skill to an average level? That means all mages will be able to know every arcane magic! Which kind of defeats the point of doing this in the first place.

 

 

THANKS Obama!!1
 

Of course conjuration is isolated... First Tier 4 Small Bear, now this.

Only because conjuration is so unique in arcane. It's also probably the most interesting subtype, in my opinion. I'm all for super-buffing this school to be in line with the others, don't worry! No tier-4 small bears for me! That sounds more in line with tier 2 in my brain, anyway.

 

Take note that combined powers in the sorcery sect are already able to be done via Blood Magic, and should be confined to this because of the necessity to boost ones' power to create these storms of magic.

 

I tried to find the lore on Blood-magic, but I didn't manage to track it down. If you wouldn't mind throwing me a link, I'll see if I can tickle away those woe-frowns of yours!

 

I have two examples, and since I've personally written them, and recently, it's fresh in my mind.

Borked: https://www.lordofthecraft.net/topic/122152-lore-the-notes-of-kalameet-izalith-the-holocron-lexicon/

Borked: https://www.lordofthecraft.net/topic/109478-the-notes-of-kalameet-izalith-the-mana-obelisk/

Any Lore which is based off of combining magics to meet an end, borked.

I'd also like to point out this thread... Link No one was fond of tiers, and how they dictated peoples power. Whilst this idea literally re-implements them, and defines each and every power level. This system clearly had the Mat system in mind, and it brings back the restrictive nature which I personally hated from the old Mat.

The removal of the Mat offered one saving grace; it wasn't restrictive on creativity. This undoes that.

 

I am not seeing how either of those are borked, Kala. They both seem easily possible within my Wizardry school. If it's about combining something outside of it, and necessitating a singular individual knowing two vastly different magics to do it, and using more than a single person simply wouldn't work, then I suppose it is borked, yes. I didn't see anything like that, though, but do give me some examples, and I'll try to belay those fears!

As for that "Bring Back the Magic App" thread, glancing through it, you appear to be the only person who was negative towards tiers. Most people didn't mention it, or seemed more interested in keeping away any form of application. Which I am not suggesting here.

 

Fantastic!~ Though given the life-creating nature of thaumaturgy as spoken of, would it not also encompass golemancy?

 

Golemancy is its own beast within magic, and not even within arcane. I wouldn't dare try to touch it. Seriously. There are attack-dogs chained to it and everything.

 

It is probably just me but I see arcane evo fitting better into wizardry. It's evocation sure but that is about as similar as it gets to elemental evocation. It is much more attached to aura magics. Ie. transfiguration and requires much more knowledge than any other evocation.

 

 

I think this format is pretty okay but could use some tweaking. Maybe the LMs are giving this a talk.

 

Anyways that's my two cents.

 

I expected this comment from you, Kitten. :P
 

I originally put arcane shielding/evocation in the Sorcery school because Arcane evocation is an evocation, and because I felt, since the sorcerers were very fighty-fighty, I'd give them a method to keep the sword-guys at bay with arcane shielding. My Wizardry school is themed around study, slow wisdom, and change, in which direct combat feels out of place. I mean, telekinesis can be used to fling stuff, but it doesn't feel like a battle-magic to me.

I could be convinced to put arcane shielding into Wizardry, but I could never be convinced to have arcane evocation anywhere but sorcery. Sorry, dude. :(

 

Ignoring the more controversial topics such as limitations to one type, tiers, group magic and all that jazz.. And just focusing on the renaming aspect, what is the need for that?

 

People as it is are already 'confused' by the variety of magic, I feel changing them around and throwing under a less descriptive title (Sorcery vs. Evocation, which explains more?) is only going to add to the confusion and upset people further. 

 

Don't take this wrongly, I love the new labeling and if we were going from scratch this would be brill.. But for an  already in-depth magic system, surely this will only go on to confuse?

 

Thanks!

Sorcery sounds cool. Sorcerers are cool. Evocation sounds dumb. Evokers sound like a type of Slovakian shrub. That's pretty much my only reasoning. 

I hope my answers were at least semi-satisfactory, guys!!

[BrandNewKitten 2789]

Mith *cough cough*

 

 

OPmage I mean uhhh.... Voidmonger

 

-Arcane evocation

-Arcane Shielding

-Void step 

-Void translocation

 

Voidmongers harness the completely raw power of the void, sometimes to a dangerous level. Unlike other specs of magic where the void is tapped into Voidmongers actively reach in and interact directly with the void causing physical and magical distortions. Voidmonger, above all other magics has the largest opportunity to inflict damage back onto the caster and many of those who have practiced the art have had thier mortal form and soul anniliated by the void. Capturing the energy of the void comes with no small risk.

 

((This is like half joke/half my fantasy lololol so don't take this too seriously :D))

 

[Raptorious 1898]

I believe when raptor originally made the post I spoke to him about it and he felt the same way as you though as jax said there really aren't enough blood magic users (Atleast seen) to make much of an impact or effectively use it. You guys were for a short time making those events with sacrificing and that was cool though it doesn't seem you are doing it any longer. I wouldn't mind though if you guys invited more blood mages and started doing events like that again but really. There shouldn't be an issue with combining arcane magics with other people. Right now there are some synergy stuff mages can do if they work in pairs. Like making a cloud of mist and then an electric mage shooting a less powerful current of electricity into it to make it a lightning cloud. Though really as it is, to do these epic feats said in the OP would require most likely about 5+ power mages and that in itself is quite difficult to do. If a group of mages, or some people that simply join together to experiment this are actually able to coordinate enough people they should be rewarded for it and be able to make things far more powerful than if they were alone. That's all i'm saying right now though since I am very tired 0-0 just got my wisdom teeth taken out today. So I will make another reply about the OP in a bit.

 

We are still very much active, we went through a spell of inactivity due to Renatus and the Oren RP we got involved in, but we are very much active.

[Dohvi 622]

As for combination spells (electrified water, etc.) I believe if it does not include two mages at once, that is a no-go. That is what I have been told at least.

I asked numerous MAT fellows back in the day. Both the really old MAT and the one that replaced it in Anthos. Combining spells, though extremely rare, was always a creativity they were happy to encourage. Electrified water being a perfect example, for someone that has water and electrical evocation. It requires a lot of control and far more energy than normal, but has always been allowed. Creativity!

[Z3r05t4r 854]

I asked numerous MAT fellows back in the day. Both the really old MAT and the one that replaced it in Anthos. Combining spells, though extremely rare, was always a creativity they were happy to encourage. Electrified water being a perfect example, for someone that has water and electrical evocation. It requires a lot of control and far more energy than normal, but has always been allowed. Creativity!

 

As much as I have inquired if it is possible to combine fire and arcane evocation where I have been shut down and told no. By Kalameet, if I may note, no offense here.

[Dohvi 622]

As much as I have inquired if it is possible to combine fire and arcane evocation where I have been shut down and told no. By Kalameet, if I may note, no offense here.

I would say no to combining fire (or any evocation for that matter) with arcane evocation too, because it doesn't make sense. That's due to the nature of arcane evocation though. It's pretty much evocation without the element, yeah? (That's how it used to be at least). Add the fire, and all you really have is fire evocation. Arcane evocation is special. It edges away from the norms of evocation. Being unable to combine it with other evocations doesn't mean you're unable to combine other evocations. It just has to make sense. No flaming water for example.

Edit: There are limited instances where you can actually combine them, because the properties of the elements can't conflict. Flaming rocks and electrified water are the two working examples that come to mind.

[Z3r05t4r 854]

I would say no to combining fire (or any evocation for that matter) with arcane evocation too, because it doesn't make sense. That's due to the nature of arcane evocation though. It's pretty much evocation without the element, yeah? (That's how it used to be at least). Add the fire, and all you really have is fire evocation. Arcane evocation is special. It edges away from the norms of evocation. Being unable to combine it with other evocations doesn't mean you're unable to combine other evocations. It just has to make sense. No flaming water for example.

Edit: There are limited instances where you can actually combine them, because the properties of the elements can't conflict. Flaming rocks and electrified water are the two working examples that come to mind.

 

Point taken.