An unformatted rant on PVP

[DeusVult 564]

Only posting this rant on the forums cuz I'm timed out on the moderator discord (deserved btw and unrelated to this)

I joined this server like early Atlas, and I started as a roleplayer, strictly. I hated pvp because people around me hated it, even though I played hypixel and other minigame esque servers all the time. I had no idea why it should be shunned until I asked, then I got a response as 'its a roleplay server'. This was the sentiment in 2018-2019, being that 'It's a roleplay server, pvp has no place in this server.' PVP Default is bad, but, what I think there should be is a mix of PVP and CRP. There should be a cap on CRP fights, 5-8 players, before it defaults to PVP, unless both sides agree of course. Most often in fights I've participated in while banditting, or raiding, the other side is extremely toxic and uninviting. They typically always play dirty and instead of trying to resolve the conflict irp, look for ways to game the system. This is present in pvp too, ESPECIALLY when the ruleset doesn't support this mode of conflict resolution. I've encountered a ton of situations that were fair, until one side just games the ruleset, or lack there of, into a winning fight. 

 

True, it is. More often than not, it devolves into one side rallying until they get enough guys to call pvp and actually roleplay with another side. Or often it's just one side refusing to pvp, or one side arguing rules of whether pvp is allowed here, or not, not really the point, just explaining transitions to rp and pvp take a long time. Better rules that truly support a roleplay-to-pvp idea can help rectify this part of the server. A lot of times when pvp is bound to happen, these sides are rallying not because they don't want to pvp, but rather because they want to win pvp. Rules that would specifically work against this can help more players who wouldn't get into pvp, actually start enjoying it. 

 

 

Point 2- "My character is a fighter but I suck at pvp"

This a truly valid point that I find really hard to argue against. It's a roleplay server, and if you play as a guard character who's been around and fought in a lot of small fights, they should be a strong fighter. Imagine this, you play a guard for the city of Petra. You've kidnapped many a goon, and many a evil doer but all of a sudden 5 musin show up, and pvp you. You lose to 5 musin, and you're emasculated, GG! I don't claim to know how to fix this, but I do know that these players should be included in this conversation, especially when it comes to the new rules being set up. I don't actually want to see a return to pvp default to handle combat situations, since it alienates players who don't want to participate in pvp at all. It is a roleplay server, and despite taking place on minecraft, people should be allowed to stay away from things they don't want to participate in.

 

 

Point 3- "I'm a mage, I wouldn't use a sword or armor in crp, why can't I in PVP?"

Hire, or recruit, coders to support a pvp plugin with magic. Nobody doesn't want this.

 

 

Point 4- "Pvp doesn't have any carry over to roleplay"

I've heard this point many times before, but I really disagree completely with this. How well you performed in pvp, as in you slew 300 ferrymen, can directly translate into roleplay. You can brag about the ferrymen you killed by holding up their bandanas, or if you ran away from a fight you can emote running back to a nation and cry out for a medic! Especially if you were downed in the fight. You could explain that you led troops to victory, or you made a decisive action that won the fight. How good of a pvper could mean that your character is that much better of a fighter. 

 

 

Point 5- "Mission statement says pvp is bad"

Honestly I think this is the most brainmelting statement ever. "We don't want it." 

**** you!!!!!! 

PVP is a viable way to resolve conflict between two antagonastic parties. With a ruleset that turns their cheek to pvp as a concept, you get the current state of the server where metagaming is encouraged. And defender-default lite is just a way to rally more players until a mod forces pvp anyways, I.E. Urguan-fmen raid, where the whole raid was just fmen raiding, urguan calling crp, rallying 15 guys, then saying "pvp?" before the situation is rightly voided with no conflict resolution. All because someone with a stick up their ass hates pvp!!!!!

Today-I am goonin' around looking for some fun things to do with my friends, then all of a sudden there's a group of 5 guys on patrol! LETS FIGHT THEIR ASS! LETS GO PVP!!

We get halted, then all of a sudden 10 minute timer, they rally 2 horsemen, and its from a 5v4, to a 7v4 because the ruleset doesn't promote any pvp-based interaction. It made my friends feel alienated from wanting to play the server in any regard, and one of them just quit because of this. He roleplayed and pvped, but because there is no pvp rules at all the roleplay behind interactions felt meaningless. 

 

Also I'd like to talk about the sorry state of crp interactions and a very easy way to solve it (it involves pvp)

CRP right now, is just two people who want to win an interaction trying to powergame without getting caught. I saw the Targoth fight, and I've never seen so much powergaming in my life that was just allowed to occur. This guy grabs a burning warhammer with his hand mid-swing, and nobody says anything about it. Just, lets it happen. Disgusting!!! 

If people want to win so badly, instead of promoting a ruleset that supports people who type endlessly in Looc, try to re-educate people (thanks ScreamingDingo) to think about narratives and story rather than jsut trying to win because they are the main character. People should be focusing on how their actions might affect other people's roleplay, and that they are in a story like anybody else. We are all roleplaying a character to collaborate and make a story together. A story, that can include pvp!

PVP Should be used in situations where CRP isn't enough to solve it. Banditry for example, is a good place to implement pvp based interactions. I've encountered many people, both bandits and banditees, that have subpar roleplay. When CRP does happen, it usually involves one player calling a mod who can't be assed to deal with a situation, and just rules in favor to end it and get the whole thign voided or  shot to pvp. PVP being a secondary choice to where it had wasted a mods time, wasted the players time, and elongated an interaction from 15 minutes up to 3 hours. 

Earlier I brought up re-education, and I genuinely believe that the community can be rehabilitated to a point where I can go out and bandit, and actually give a good experience. Vale, for example, had some great roleplay given to us from them, and I gave some great roleplay back. We kidnapped some of their little goons, tied them all up and held them for ransom. We did some goofy shit and made one of them give a speech to calm their nerves, then I started talking to them irply, just some small talk about what they're gonna do after the situation blows over. My character grew from it, and their characters probably grew too, learning a bit about how my character thinks. It's a cool interaction that I wish could be had more. Sadly, I don't think the community as a whole is in a state that could support this on a wider scale.

 

TL:DR PVP should be implemented because I don't want to CRP with a 15 year old child who can't spell properly and just wants to win a conflict with his self insert.

Also there should be a hard cap on CRP interactions unless both sides agree to keep it in crp. 

[jdesarno 380]

Back in my day you could've just come to terms with the other party on what they wanted and been done with it, 

fast forward to present day you have both sides advocating for pvp and crp, each have their own points,

Pvp is down to earth and popular with many, straight to the point with some problems, the other side is no different.

Crp was nice if both sides agreed, but nowadays you have to memorize every other rule or find some loophole if you want to be able to outdo the other guy- Same goes with pvp, to a lesser extent.

 

I miss the old times. Bring back the old times. But like Lotc- people don't like change. Alas, tragic times plague us all.

[Pancho 2536]

I think that the fact that people can pvp their way out of actual rp consequences is cringe. I like PvP, but I also think roleplay comes first on a roleplay server. Why should a group of dark mages be forced to go into sword dueling with a bunch of people when they have magics or summons that fight for them? PvP is a cheap way to win for some people, though that doesn't say it shouldn't be encouraged. Raiding parties should always default to PvP over a certain amount. Though it doesn't mean every interaction should be PvP, you just gotta find a balance. Right now, LOTC doesn't do well with said balance, but it's improving. Stuff doesn't change overnight.

[MisterBlitzkrieg 1357]

The only problem I have with CRP is the honor version. It's boring and can be abused because it will sooner or later just devolve into a test to see who can waste the other's time the most and eventually have them just start allowing hits and eventually get their character killed because they got more important shit to do with their time. Rolls are more dynamic and actually provide a somewhat good basis for damage and the success of your attacks and stuff but the only problem is that you need to pray to RGN-Jesus for good rolls. If CRP had some form of health or hit system through rolls then it would be much more beneficial. Some races have more hitpoints and some less hitpoints. Some MA's/FA's can give or reduce health etc etc. 

Some people might remember the duel between Eddywilson and Mio during the petran civil war and that was the first time I saw such a crp fight take place. It was actually fun to watch because of the high stakes and generally the unpredictability of the rolls. Both had an agreed amount of hits they could take before they got killed and they had to roll for damage and stuff. I dont remember the specifics but something similar might be something worth considering. 

[creamynoteblock 2426]

4 hours ago, DeusVult said:

Hire, or recruit, coders to support a pvp plugin with magic. Nobody doesn't want this

i dont want that

[AnonymousAlexa 3877]

The real issue with pvp is the pvpers union. Call cope all you want, but as a former member of the union, it sucks for the server and conflict in general.

[MeteorDragon 2832]

9 hours ago, DeusVult said:

Hire, or recruit, coders to support a pvp plugin with magic. Nobody doesn't want this.

We don't want this. To be frank, it's a terrible idea that will never be implemented properly. It'll just make more work for people and the wrong people will abuse the hell out of it. Btw, I've been a mage for about 2 irl years, so I'm speaking from the side of having magic

 

I believe PvP is a problematic thing on this server. We had a taste of what it was like to have no PvP for the first month or so and it was great! Nations hardly ever had their gates down, more rp was happening, it was easier to find things to do. But, now that it's back, people have to worry about their planned events turning into lame PvP fests. Might I also throw out how some nations ping for PvP practice more than they do rp events. I whole heartedly believe that the removal of PvP would be a good thing for LOTC.

[MRCHENN 3663]

Skimmed through the post and while I agree with some of these arguments, realistically there's only so much staff can do about this. I really think this plague of determining "proper conflict" has devolved to an issue with player mentality, not a specific ruleset. We've seen combat and conflict rulesets dramatically change over the past few years, but these issues still persist. Why?

At the end of the day, the responsibility of changing and guiding how playerbases approach conflict roleplay falls on the leaders of communities (not necesssarily the NL, but for example, a military leader). If people really care about the issue of CRP vs. PVP, set an example of having a good mentality as the leader of your RP group. If you set an example of CRPing in good faith, and PVPing when needed (or if both parties are down to just pvp), the grunts/noobs that follow you will inevitably adopt the same practice. We often see many people talk about how they've had the greatest CRP duels ever regardless of the outcome, because the two players beforehand set mutual standards for what that conflict would look like. Imagine now, if military/community leaders set that example for the people under them.

At the end of the day: sure, there's still rules to work on (Re: Xarkly's post about mechanical running). But at the same time, there's only so much change in the rules that we can administrate. It falls on RP leaders of militaries and communities who care about these issues to set the example of when it's fair to CRP, and when it's fair to PVP. Only then, we might see some change spread across the server.
 

[Unwillingly 11178]

9 hours ago, DeusVult said:

Hire, or recruit, coders to support a pvp plugin with magic. Nobody doesn't want this.

if we got a magic plugin what kind of players do you think would suddenly show interest in magic and why do you think they'd be interested 

 

 

[Mark2282 305]

A decent middleground between the current rules and what you propose could be that raids (which have been modrequested for) always default to what the attacking party prefers.

[Somersetting 304]

I have thoughts

 

A lot of my memories of pvp involved spending two hours having two groups chase each other half way across the map until eventually they clashed and it became a clicking mosh pit where you couldn't tell what the hell was happening, and this was between two groups that really were OOCly friendly and just wanted a good skirm. I think slight mechanical tweaks could do a lot to change how it goes, I remember javelins when they came in for a while really changed the meta to **** over people charging groups that were bunched up, since you had to drop your shield and you'd catch a spear to the face, something like that maybe, idk.

 

I don't think a magic plugin is a good move, just fight with a sword and bow and rp it as being magic afterwards. Anything towards MCMMOish classes just feels like a bad idea. 

 

Maybe some way of limiting the number of weapons you carry, like how the crossbows can't all be loaded at once, could make things more interesting and less click-mosh-pit-y. Not everybody can be an archer/crossbowman/sword&board/javelin/horse rider, you'd have to actually think through the tactics a bit more that way. 

 

Also, let us hide armor somehow or give some better way of telling who is who than a status tag, since those are impossible to see half the time.

 

(take all this with a massive grain of salt as I've not pvped on here in like 2 years)

[Greehn 1850]

i got a headache reading this

stop trying to push pvp on the majority that don't want it. if you don't wanna roleplay out the consequences of picking a fight (on a roleplay server) then just don't play dude

 

11 hours ago, DeusVult said:

Hire, or recruit, coders to support a pvp plugin with magic. Nobody doesn't want this.

speak for yourself!

[KeatonUnbeaten 1102]

the old days of 24/7 warzones, limitless raids, and rewarding pvp are gone. buried by the rp-only elitists, poor (whether by incompetent coding or just successive rule changes) mechanics and systems, and win-hungry clickers. 

 

it aint LOTC pvp without Loads Of Twats Complaining.

[Benleft 887]

14 hours ago, DeusVult said:

If people want to win so badly, instead of promoting a ruleset that supports people who type endlessly in Looc, try to re-educate people (thanks ScreamingDingo) to think about narratives and story rather than jsut trying to win because they are the main character. People should be focusing on how their actions might affect other people's roleplay, and that they are in a story like anybody else. We are all roleplaying a character to collaborate and make a story together. A story, that can include pvp!

I think you’re leaning on the same crutch that many CRP-oriented forum warriors tend to. “Let’s think about the narrative,” is an excuse, plain and simple. Conflict is often, and will remain to be regardless of rule-set, premeditated. Most CRP is a result of one group either finding another, or something of that ilk. But that’s the nature of the server, and that’s fine. The only issue that exists here is a mindset one. W-chasing exists in every niche and community. Redirect your passion towards wiping that tendency out first in yourself, then in those close to you. 
 

Cringe Hot Take (Pre-Ownage):

But players ought to stop pretending they are creating a “collaborative story”. When you are roleplaying, you can only control your own character. To that extent the only narrative you can truly own is your own. Wondering, “Is this engaging for the other person,” is an admirable thought, but it is not roleplaying. You are an actor, not a director. Act how your character would act, plain and simple. For most (myself included), this is a difficult task, and is where you should start. When you are not roleplaying and break character, use it as a moment of learning and introspection. Why did you break character? How did you break character? How can you learn to  better appreciate the conditions in which you broke character? 

 

Meta-concerns (“Is PVP suitable here?”) are only worth tackling once you’re able to see where you, and others stumble in conflict. Rulesets do not matter when you taste the beauty of selflessly selfish roleplay. This is the re-education you asked for. Take my words with a grain of salt, most of them are not literal. 

 

Not Cringe Opinion (Post-Ownage):

It is easy to say "Are-pee is not collaborative. Do better yourself. That is all that matters." But that's cringe. It is all about having fun and always should be. Be considerate and be kind. Do the best you can but not at the expense of others. It doesn't need to be more complicated than that. If we are all kind and do the best we can, mechanical rules can become secondary and enjoyment can come first (with a grain of salt). Rule changes will always happen, but start with yourself. 

Edited August 8, 2023 by Benleft
I got owned (corrected with helpful reference)

[Burnsider 4542]

1 hour ago, Benleft said:

But players ought to stop pretending they are creating a “collaborative story”. When you are roleplaying, you can only control your own character. To that extent the only narrative you can truly own is your own. Wondering, “Is this engaging for the other person,” is an admirable thought, but it is not roleplaying.

 

This is absolutely the worst take on role-playing I've ever heard. I wholeheartedly suggest you read this, as it talks about why. 

 

https://lookrobot.co.uk/2013/06/23/stanislavski-vs-brecht-in-tabletop-roleplaying/